99designs.com: a warning to freelancers.
Kevin Potts recently did a review/critique of wundersite www.99designs.com - which appears to be a simplified spin of other such sites like Elance and what Kevin calls it’s “malignant brethren”. The site, which uses less than ideal techniques to get designers to connect with businesses, requires spec work and encourages horribly low prices. In his article, Kevin removes the usual sales pitch and business jargon and brings out the underlying truth:
Hmm. Yes, by all means, we want to avoid the time and consideration professional designers offer and go right to the lowest common denominator of grade-school dropouts whose portfolio’s crown jewel is a logo for their dad’s wholesale llama manure clearing house. We definitely do not want any in-depth communication. We do not want any understanding of the company, the brand, or the direction and aspirations of the organization.
In a nutshell, this is what you’re asking for if you work with these guys:
- You’re doing the work whether you like it or not. Payment is irrelevant. You only get that if you actually “win” the “contest”.
- Even if you do win, you don’t win much. (They seem to encourage low prices, as stated on their how it works page.)
- You lose your copyright privileges and you apparently can’t even take a public stand if your designs are stolen. Read their copyright page for more on that.
- You’re also asking for a royal slap in the face from folks like me and other real designers.
Freelancers: if you really care about your work and the design industry, do NOT use 99designs or others like it to gain clients. You’re hurting yourself and the rest of us too.
Business owners: if you really want someone who will take the time to get to know your company and present an informed and well-rounded design, might I suggest someone from the Xemion Web Designer Directory?
Here’s Kevin’s article (warning: contains some strong language)
Tod:
I think this is a very unfair review. There are designers out there in other countries that are willing to work for less. There are also designers out there that do not know how to code a website but are awesome at graphics. Some web development shops outsource their graphic work to these types of places and make contacts for further work at decent sub contract rates with full rights to ownership. There is a market for low cost awesome copyright free designs and 99designs (former sitepoint) beautifully fills that need. Most of the artists are great and are simply making extra money VERY QUICKLY. Your view only applies to real design shops that offer the hand holding, coding, programming, marketing and possibly brand development skills along with the concept. Even the coded designs do not make a website, there is a lot more work to do especially if there is a dynamic portion to the site. It is also a great training ground for up and coming designers to flex there artist muscles and get constructive criticism of their designs.
doT:
Tod - you are misinformed and ignorant of the facts…
Travis:
This reads like someone who is quite pissed that their precious world-view is in danger - perhaps your creative skills are not up to the requirements to keep you competitive in a global market. The internet obviously opened a vast market…play ball or change jobs.
Micah:
@ Travis:
Yes, I am upset that my world-view is in danger, but it’s not because my creative skills are weak. I believe in “you get what you pay for”. I believe in client relations and understanding the company you’re working for. I also believe a person should get fair wages for their work, and this chump change–which you may or may not get–will not pay the bills.
vikash:
**** My personal views only ****
The money they offer is really great, much-much more then any other freelance graphic design community, so money is not a problem. Think about a designer, who is having creative thinking, but doesn’t know, what is the latest market trend and how to build-up his skills to become a successful designer (from creative thinker to designer). He needs some sources to become a designer, and there is nothing better for him then 99designs or any other similar website offering that much price money and competition. I myself improved my skills and many designers (in your word “so called” designers) have improved and they are in continuous process of improvement. I wish, there should be more sites like 99designs
mikimoco:
Has anyone else noticed how success for the freelance graphic design professional takes a good deal of creativity and imagination (not just in the artistic sense)? Speaking with some successful freelance designers, I began to realize that it required less selling and more social networking. Whereas this has not been my strength, I have begun to exercise this option and have blended it with some out-of-the-box and inordinate approaches. One that has begun to get results is to offer my design services to design companies who do what I do and are more prolific at selling to customers. I was imagining how they must have times that they go crazy with too much work and not enough time in their day or staff to handle the same. I offer to take either the design or the programming off their hands without dragging much from their profit margin or stealing their customers. I find that the larger design companies somehow find customers who pay them big bucks for websites, which allows me to ask them a reasonable price. This frees up their time and allows them to take on more clients at once.
C4:
I’m a Dj. I Dj at a club as a hobby. I also graphic desing as a hobby. You don’t see Dj Q-Bert or mix master mike running online to complain that will spin a night for 300$ when they do it for 30,000.
It’s not like Telus, Nike, and Microsoft are buying there ads on sites like this. It’s small shops who don’t have 50,000 to spend on a logo. Complaining about it is silly, if your skills are so elite then you already have a paid job with a salary. Go to it. And get paid.
Outsource Web Design:
@mikimoco: Well Said.
—————————
I have no problem paying top dollar for designs that take into account where they eye is drawn (such as a buy now button), balance, css tabless code, well thought out color selection and other important factors. I actually prefer to use my own freelancers then run a contest where you never know what you will get.
But some clients specifically ask for me to adhere to budgets that require designs from crowd sourcing. Most often the uncoded designs I receive ARE very good.
Remember these are just psd templates not coded designs and often the designers that are best on 99designs do not know how to code the site other then to slice it up and create the web page automatically from photoshop. When I have a client that wants the best and has the budget for it I always use my top freelancers for US industry standard rates plus bonuses for good work.
Every one has a place in the market place. If you are at the top of your game and know more then just graphic design (such as css, html, javascript, flash, usability, copy writing, seo) you will get paid accordingly. I will also mention that some of my top graphic designers I met on the sitepoint market place.
Michelle:
As a small online company who’s been around the block several times over the years, I can say with certainty that the phrase “you get what you pay for.” is BS.
The only people who say that are people who charge a lot.
The only time I agree w/ that statement is when you buy a high end item such as a car, TV, etc.
Even less expensive food can taste 10 times better than expensive food at some pretentious restaurant.
When it comes to an IC’s skill, their skill is their skill.
I’ve come across ICs who charged a lot & their work was terrible, & people who charged within my budget who were smarter, more reliable, easier to communicate with & did a much better job.
I haven’t used 99designs yet b/c their min. rates were more than I wanted to spend on a simple header. In fact I’m not sure they even have prices for just a header, but I know that if someone can’t do a nice header for $50-75, then they aren’t really a good designer, as I just had 2 headers done & that designer charged $59, & she did a better job than any other designer I’ve ever hired. That’s my opinion.
Also, I’ve done a contest once before on another MB, & got no designs, & I ended up wasting my money, so I’m leery of them, but ultimately, I want to be able to farm out work to 2-3 graphic web designers (no code) & build a really good relationship with them so I don’t have to keep searching around.
Thanks
Michelle
http://exoticpublishing.com/work-with-our-team
Robert:
Maybe sites like 99designs.com are full of low quality designers and low quality designs based on spec work. If that’s the case then any top notch designer could go on there and own every contest. Since all the designs that come out are poor quality you could trump them with hardly any effort spent and make a nice, easy, chunk of bonus change.
We did a contest on 99designs.com and had so many quality designs to choose from for $350 that we had a tough time choosing one. Our local design expert wanted $700 for two concepts and they stunk. Looks like they were thrown together in 15 minutes and they probably were as he had 10 days to come up with them and I called him one day before the due date and he said almost done..have them tomorrow…the guy hadn’t even started working on them.
When I see someone slam a concept such as this it makes me think they are threatened by them.
Good luck
Travis:
A far more eloquent way of saying basically the same thing I was attempting to say earlier Robert (see #3).
Travis
James Paden:
@Travis and @Robert - you guys are sort of missing the point here. We’re writing this from a designers standpoint and listing the reasons a designer would not want to participate at 99designs.
Yes, you’re right, a quality designer would most likely win lots of contests. BUT - why would they want to? They can make far more money doing it for real clients.
Read Micah’s bullet points above.
And from the client perspective, as both Micah and Kevin pointed out, if you really want to skip the whole discovery phase of your project and get limited support after the project…go right ahead
idesigno:
Oh my god where do I start.
I am a working designer and tried my hand at 99designs just to see how it worked. Just to examine the beginning to end process and to see what this crowdsourcing is all about. After sifting through many many contests I thought to myself what is the probability I would win… um yeah slim to none, but I did it anyway.
As I sifted through what I thought would be fun projects, I came across a multitude of abandoned, and “unhealthy†contests of which designers still submitting their designs.
What I realized is the “health†of the contest coined by 99designs to provide designers with knowledge that the contest holder is fully participating in their contest with feedback and communication to designers or not.
Many many contest holders were not offering ANY feedback. And on top of it all the briefs offered by the contest holders were vague and conflicting and confusing with very little information offered to the designer to even have a clue as the direction the contest holder is going. Now in the real world at the very least a designer upon meeting with the client can get a feel for the direction and then create something that would meet their needs. What I also found was however, even with very little feedback, the contest holder would change the project mid contest.
Another contest had unreasonable ideals for the contest to create a website based on two websites addresses provided and then wanted the designers to provide a prototype in 5 different colors and ALSO code it for $350.00 winning prize.
So anyway I enter what I thought would be a safe first contest, a 4×6 postcard print design with a winning prize of $100.00. I spent about 3 hours creating a design with all custom art – no clip art and submitted the design and shortly after I received a 4 star rating (out of 5) and thought OK I can be a contender.
Shortly before the contest ended the competitor came out in me and I revised the design with 4 different of the same design with color variations and submitted it thinking that possibly my design was the most stand-out and I might be able to win this thing.
The contest holder contacted me to tell me that he was going to choose my design if I could make a small revision in the subhead, and I agreed after the contest because I didn’t have time to do so before the contest ended. So I win this first contest of mine, and I revise the subhead, and then I submit the design to his email as well as communicate this to him with the 99 design email and wait, and wait and 5 days later I finally got nasty and told this guy off.
My email:
Ok I’ve tried to contact you, and you have not returned any of my emails. I wanted to work with you and assist you on getting the design you want, but it appears if you would rather dismiss this contest and not take responsibility for your choice and YOUR contest. Believe it or not, many designers on here are working very hard for you and good designs take a lot of time and effort and all it takes is some respect while you are building your company this way. So I’ll give you 1 more day to contact me before I am convinced that you flaked.
His reply:
This is the first response I have gotten from you after the one where you
said you would rework the design to have the “subhead”
enhanced. I will gladly send payment. Send me a payment request in
paypal. Let me know if you don’t know how to do that. Regarding the
design, have you made any modifications yet? My email is
xxxxx@hotmail.com
Thanks, Xxxx
I reply:
Hi Xxxx
hmmm very interesting that you did not receive BOTH 99 email or your hotmail hmmm that is very odd and very improbable. So if you check your hotmail you should see that I sent a re-worked version same day as the contest end.
Listen be straight with me and I will still assist you if you want. You can send paypal to xxxxxx@xxxxxx.com
So what do I have to do hand hold these contest holders through this process or what?
Ok I know this would never fly in the real world but I’m testing the boundaries of this contest right. MY conclusion is that wow the flake factor is definitely huge all through this site.
James Paden:
Wow, thanks for your sharing your experience. Very interesting perspective.
I do have to recommend though, that you maintain a more professional tone in your e-mails to the contest holder. As a designer and freelancer, the way you present yourself will always be making an impact. You’re probably complete right about the contest holder, but perhaps there was a legitimate reason for his delay and you could have blown a chance to retain a long-time client.
Outsource Web Design:
I agree the contest holder may be a deadbeat but it is also possible he isn’t. You may want to try and remove emotion and expectations of site point customers from your communications with clients. If the email went to spam or there was a simple misunderstanding then you could lose a good current and future customer.
As a buyer of sitepoint designs myself, project manager and an internet user I know misunderstandings, email problems and just plain poor time management skills can happen.
As for myself I have always paid the designer I awarded and often I will give a second place prize or purchase one of the other designs I didn’t pick as the winner.
Even if a client doesn’t like one of the designs I will still award someone the prize and then use one of my other designers from that point on.
idesigno:
Yes you are absolutely right in the REAL WORLD. But c’mon this is really bad Spec work at it’s lowest level.
My female intuition tells me that 99design is all wrong, until they give safeguards to designers and make it win win. Right now as it stands, all of the power is in the contest holder and looking around and viewing some of the contests I get a really chaotic sense about them.
And I’m sorry, this is not a place to find long term clients, because I’ll tell you why. Most of these contests being held are from people who don’t want to build a relationship with anyone and are looking to solve their design problems quick and fast and are very unrealistic for the most part. They are mostly misinformed and uneducated in regards to the design to finished product and there is no way to educate them via a set-up like 99designs. Also, you can’t sit down with them, and discuss goals and get a real sense of what they are looking for in a design. Only serious clients looking for a designer who can also be a consultant and solve there problems and give them a product that also has continuity to there branding are worth winning over.
Too be cont… I have a funny feeling
Michelle:
I don’t know, I disagree. A company may be small & not have many options to finding good graphic web designers who are responsible, communicate well, ethical, etc.
While I’m not saying 99designs is the best option, where do you suggest small companies look for GWDs for a long term relationship?
Michelle
James Paden:
Completely agree with all your comments idesigno. That’s what this post is about, trying to warn designers away from 99designs and similar sites.
Outsource and I were just commenting that it is ALWAYS the real world, whether it seems like it or not.
James Paden:
Michelle, 99designs is probably better than nothing. Small companies can barter for services with a freelancer if they can’t afford a normal arrangement.
Again, 99designs isn’t awful from the client site. They get a lot of options at a really cheap price. In general though, I doubt they’ll regularly find good communication on 99designs (when compared to a normal graphic/web design project). As for “responsible” designers, that just depends on how you define responsibility. Personally speaking, I believe a designer has a strong responsibility to the discovery phase of a project and figuring out what is truly best for the client (which isn’t always, or even normally, what the client originally asked for). This isn’t going to be found on a contest website.
The focus of this post and discussion though, is from the DESIGNER’S perspective. If a designer is really up to a professional level of quality and communication, he’s doing himself a serious disservice by working on 99designs.
Even for offshore, low-cost designers - it’s normally better to find work on Elance or oDesk, etc..
idesigno:
Hi Michele
Look for them locally, in the yellow book. Call the local design schools, and get student work if you are on a tight budget.
I’m not saying that 99designs is a completely awful thing. Some people may truly benefit from this site. I just get a bad feeling as a designer while searching through and sifting through the contests. I may very well try another site such as crowdSpring because winners are guaranteed payment for services.
I spent a lot of money going to school to become a designer and I don’t want to see the industry as a lowball commodity. Other professions such as lawyers and healthcare professionals should not be taken advantage of as well. Right?
I have a funny feeling that sites like 99designs are going to grow like a cancer, and this crowdsourcing will become oversaturated on the web and so a natural evolution of certain policies and standards may be put into place to compete with the competion. I don’t know, I guess I just hope so. I just wanted to share my experience
enough said.
Michelle:
Hi James, : ) well when I say responsible, I mean the designer actually does the work, responds to e-mails within a few hours or less (unless it’s outside the scope of their hours), & doesn’t blame the client for their actions. This has happened to me too many times for me to count. I’ve been running my business since 2004.
I’ve been ripped off quite a few times from graphic web designers & even one who was supposed to design one of my e-books.
I’m not the only one. Just the other day I saw another small business owner post the he got ripped off twice by designers on Guru. This happens a lot. I’m not sure if you guys are aware of this.
I’ve used Odesk, & I either don’t get quality, or very few responses. Elance I can’t use, they won’t let me, & I once did a contest on some other forum, & got only 2 designers who designed a mockup, & both weren’t up to my standards. I found out afterwards one was only 16 y/o & while I wish to give the young ones a chance, he couldn’t even understand what I was saying.
Idesigno, I don’t live in a large city, so going to the YPs doesn’t work & I don’t hire locally, I hire wherever the person happens to be. Usually the States, but overseas as well.
I once tried to hire a GWD from a design school, & he was not only full of ego, he was more expensive then anyone else.
I feel what I offer is fair, not really below average, as I’m never looking for complex designs.
Contest forums have been around for a long time, this isn’t something new. 99design was created from the guys at Site Point, & for the most part I like SP, they are a good forum, but everything really depends on the person & who they are inside as a human being & their skillset.
At first I thought it was me, so I passed on the communication to my assistant who is way more diplomatic then I am (& patient too LOL), & he too couldn’t get work done properly, get them to understand him, get them to give us ALL the information we needed to know, etc. & these are all North Americans, they weren’t foreigners, at least if it’s someone who’s from overseas, I can understand that.
All I ever need is 1-3 designers that I can call upon whenever I create a new site.
I wish for the day when there are more regulations online instead of this wild wild west where people & companies are taken advantage of. It’s sad, as I love the Internet.
Thanks : ) I hope all goes well for everyone!
Michelle
y0mbo:
You may also want to check out http://www.no-spec.com/ which covers things like 99designs and spec work.
Robert:
James Paden,
Yes I do understand why some designers would not want to participate in site like 99designs.com. Spec work is brutal and not for everyone. Lots of jobs are similar to spec work though. How bout the guy or gal who waits on you in the shoe store for an hour and in the end you go no thanks…don’t see nothing I like. If they are paid commission then that’s spec work. Spent an hour helping you and no pay. Or the sales clerk at the furniture store who answers your questions on mattresses for 2 hours and you don’t end up buying anything. Or at the top of the list the car salesman you work over for 3 weeks and then at the last minute your wife decides she wants a Toyota instead of a Dodge and no deal. All spec work.
We do have a great designer we work with for many projects and the company is reliable and dependable. How did he get my business? I needed a post card made and he said I’ll layout a bunch for you and you only pay if you see one you like. He didn’t need a payment guarantee because he was so good he knew he’d nail it and he did.
There are guaranteed contest on 99designs.com now which offers a guaranteed winner in the contest. Great idea and really entices designers to create for those contest.
There are a lot of people having contest who do make it hard for the designers because they don’t give feedback.
I guess I just got ripped off to many times buy shady design companies who charge $700 for a project and spend 30 minutes on it. IN the end it’s my fault for picking them not theirs.
James Paden:
Thanks for the comments, Robert! I think there’s a slight difference between sales professionals as you’re describing and freelance designers. While designers do have to sales work, every quality designer I know is completely booked for a minimum of two months at all times.
This post is intended to help educate designers and warn them of the dangers of using such services. I’ve done spec work as well and while I have gotten excellent clients, such as yourself from the work, in the end I’ve always gotten a lot more clients and better quality clients by letting my past work and portfolio speak for itself and standing my ground when it comes to specs and upfront payment. A good client will be willing to pay for good design (and good service).
And in the end, it’s the shady design company’s fault for not getting your return business as well. I’m sorry to hear that so many in our industry have not dealt with you ethically and professionally
Robert:
Hi James,
Well when I made this emotional (my mistake) post I really didn’t take the time to look around this site. I read your post above and what made me a little irate was the article you linked to by Kevin whoever. xemion.com looks like a wonderful site and there is nothing wrong with educating designers about the pitfalls that 99designs.com could bring their way. However that article you linked to is not representative of the content of this site. It’s a scathing one sided vulgar put down of something that sounds like it is coming from a very irrational person. By slamming someone elses business that blatantly you only make your self look bad and xemion.com might do itself good to not associate itself with companies or individuals that take that approach. An objective article written without the vulgarities (and yes I do may share of expletives) and name calling carries much more weight than Kevin’s name calling and bullying.
I myself would also warn designers that using 99designs.com is not for everyone. You can put in hours of work and receive no compensation. I did see many designers though with 10% win rates in their portfolio which isn’t to bad.
You would need to also mention that one good thing that could come from sites like this is if you are looking to grow your design skills this actually could be an excellent source to get one of the most valuable resources that money can’t buy. Honest, cold hard, unsolicited, feedback on your designs. If you don’t take criticism well this definitely is not the place for a designer. Very rarely will a client sitting across from a designer tell them their design stinks. For a client being completely honest to a designer is like telling a mother her baby is ugly. You just can’t do it. The anonomynity of sites like 99designs.com could give you some great feedback on what areas you need to improve in.
This is a wonderful site James and I apologize if I came across a bit harsh. Again that article you linked to made me see a little blurry and tainted your site till I did some more looking around.
James Paden:
Excellent points, Robert and I appreciate the kind comments. While I believe there are BETTER ways for a beginning designer to learn then entering contests, for a begging designer, it is not a bad option. Thanks for all your comments and feedback!
Steve:
Quoting idesigno above: “Most of these contests being held are from people who don’t want to build a relationship with anyone and are looking to solve their design problems quick and fast and are very unrealistic for the most part.”
Doesn’t this mean that 99designs is filling a niche which you cannot or will not? What exactly is wrong with that? As a software developer, I want someone to help me get a site up quick. I don’t need to have a long-lasting relationship with a graphic designer. I need the project done quick and efficiently, and I want lots of choices. 99 Designs provides me with this, at a fraction of the cost that a graphic designer would charge.
Is the animosity directed towards 99 Designs because you are afraid the market will no longer bear to spend thousands of dollars on your design work, and establish a relationship with said designers? Times are changing. Perhaps you should adapt to this change, come up with new ideas and solutions. Even the clients i work for are getting away from throwing thousands, if not millions, into software development projects that take enormous amounts of time and resources to implement. They want cheap, efficient, and quick solutions. Do the ERP development houses complain when salesforce.com puts the power of development into the hands of the users? No, they adapt to what the market wants. I think that is what should be considered a bit more than it is. I don’t see 99Designs as a threat to the professional graphic designer. But I do see short-sightedness to be a threat to a professional’s survival.
You know, if 99Designs is such a “malignancy” to the graphic design profession, has someone thought of establishing a site that offers the reverse- the platinum contest, where the client pays a premium for the privilege of having thousands of designers provide samples for them to choose from? If there isn’t already, develop a business model that competes with 99Designs at the opposite side of the spectrum, and see if the market will bear that? If not, then come back here and complain.
James Paden:
Steve, you’re sort of missing the point. You’re correct. If you don’t care about a long term relationship with your designer (which I suspect you may regret in the long term) - 99 Designs is GREAT for YOU!
But it’s bad for the designer. That’s the point of this post.
In terms of the web/graphic design “market” bearing the 99 Designs model. It can’t. It won’t. A designer cannot make a quality living working full time in the 99 Design marketplace. If I’m wrong, I’d love to talk to the said designer because I’m really curious.
99 Designs will continue to exist and continue to serve it’s very small niche (client’s with low needs, such as Steve). It will continue to be frequented by designers who for one reason or another aren’t ready for the big game. And that’s fine with me. Micah, Kevin and I just want to make sure that designers know what they’re getting into.
Travis:
The choice to put “market” in quotes is an interesting one, James, in that, if the two services are alike in services offered but dissimilar in the perceived “value-added” component to the client, then the target “markets” really are different…for now…
“It will continue to be frequented by designers who for one reason or another aren’t ready for the big game” may be about the most arrogant, condescending statement I have read regarding this topic. You fail to acknowledge the marketing strategy of higher turnover, lower profits. If you really don’t see it, use Wal-Mart as an example. It’s a numbers game - they make less per item (profit margin) but rely on higher volume to increase profits. This is precisely what 99Designs is, and appears to be the way the market is headed. Also interesting is the use of the assumed “very small niche.” 99Designs is not the only game in town, and if there was insufficient demand for the multitude of online design sites, wouldn’t they be obsolete by now? I know that I have used and participated in worth1000.com contests since mid-2001, and I’m sure others have “somehow” managed to survive. I mean a site with no visitors (or “clients”) closes, right?
Your lack of business acumen, James, coupled with your designer-bias (read:arrogance), and your absolute unwillingness to accept change will all but certainly ensure you go the way of the newspaper - sure, it still exists and probably always will in some form, but there will only be a select few powerhouses and no room for the little/medium-guys.
Idesigno:
Hi Steve,
You stated:
“I don’t see 99Designs as a threat to the professional graphic designer.”
I don’t either. I simply gave my experience trying it once to see what kind of experience I would have. Anyone can throw some clip art together and ad some type and via some tutorial offered on the web anyone can create glossy buttons. What I found on 99designs is that this is for the most part what you buy. If that’s what you want and have no qualms about developing your branding and need something fast… then have at it. There is risk you are taking in that you may not get the deliverable that will be best for your needs, as without proper communication between client and designer, all kinds of rookie and uneducated stuff can occur. It’s YOUR RISK as well using this service.
And as far as developing a business model that competes with 99designs. That’s not my niche. Thanks but no thanks. I don’t have animosity for 99. I do think it is NOT a win win model. And when I say win win I mean for BOTH designer and client. Try it yourself and let us know how it goes.
James Paden:
Travis, my comment stands. I do not believe there is a single designer who makes a full time living on 99 Designs or any other contest-oriented website. It’s not about arrogance, it’s about economics.
There is plenty of demand for online contest sites and there always will be. I’m not saying the concept doesn’t work - I’m just saying it won’t work for the design industry (or “market”) as a whole. The concept does not scale.
Can designers use contests as a marketing tool? Yes. Are there much better and more effective uses of their time? Definitely yes.
Idesigno, excellent points on the win win and the risk. Well said.
Idesigno:
Travis
You stated:
“Your lack of business acumen, James, coupled with your designer-bias (read:arrogance), and your absolute unwillingness to accept change will all but certainly ensure you go the way of the newspaper”
Hmmm really. You know James? You know him so well that you can make these statements to him that are all knowing of him. You know his range of knowledge and his understanding of this issue as well as the design field?
I know, I know Travis, it’s real fun to be anonymous on a site like this and let your frustration out on someone only trying to bring light to a subject worth debating. But c’mon leave the rude out of it.
Steve:
Fair enough. If you feel this is bad for the designer, that’s fine. But I really don’t think its bad for the business owner. My opinion is it provides choice, and while there may be some “rookie” contributions in the mix, and risk involved, that’s what choice is all about. There is also risk involved if I contract a designer for a substantial fee. But in my opinion, 99Designs is far less risk, even if it can only be considered the “Walmart” of graphic design houses.
A bunch of us have already used it for a training program: http://99designs.com/contests/9392
I don’t think the resulting prize amount is unfair. Some of the templates contributed weren’t much better than what you’d find on templatemonster.com, but, then again, I don’t shy away from that resource, either.
Its all about what you need, to be sure. If I want to hang a Picasso on the wall, I have to pay for it. But if I want something nice and simple for my wall, perhaps a print from Overstock.com will do. I’m coming from the “less expense is better” mentality, and for my business, that’s all I need. But I question why 99Designs is so bad for the freelancer. Didn’t someone else write that it would provide them the practice they need, and perhaps a portfolio of work in areas where they wouldn’t have conceived of delving on their own. I really don’t think its a crappy design mill at all. I see a win-win situation, but that’s me.
I also read Kevin Pott’s review, which I feel is extremely over-the-top. But then again, there’s adsense all over that page, so he’s quite clever to froth all over the place to attract an audience of potential clickers.
Idesigno, I do understand where you are coming from. You mention above that you spent a lot for your education, and do not want to see your industry turned into a commodity. I can appreciate that. But again, we must adapt to changing times.
If James is correct, and these sites serve only a very small niche, then there is really no problem, other than warning professional designers not to participate, I guess. Nevertheless, I think 99Designs provides a good opportunity for your directory to stand out.
James Paden:
Thanks for your comments, Steve. All very fair. Personally, I might even support Template Monster OVER 99 Designs from a designer’s perspective (many might disagree). Best of luck in all your endeavors, Steve!
Idesigno:
You are right james. At the very least template monster includes code. Great Value for someone looking for super duper fast!
enough said for the day. Peace to you all.
Mason:
I am a relatively new graphic designer in the market as I am also still a student. In the attempt to build my portfolio and gain a little experience I tried 99Designs…I got burned more than once. While it may work out for some it really did me no good.
I now have a good portfolio and excellent client references from doing actual leg work. I looked around online at local businesses and non-profits who really could use a good designer (some of them were really bad off) and offered my services pro bono to some and highly reduced rates to others. It wasn’t long after doing this I started getting phone calls and emails from other business in the state who got word of mouth reviews of my work and now even as a student I have a good client base and a good deal of work.
My point is spec work is the easy way out so to speak, it gives the designer the remote chance that he can make a little money. Two weeks of doing real leg work to find clients has paid off far more than three months on 99Designs. While it may be good for the client who wants high quality work for next to nothing, the designer would benefit far more from getting out there and acting like a real designer and selling himself and his services.
James Paden:
Wow, Mason. Thanks for the comments. I think you realized exactly what we were trying to communicate with this post and I’m really glad things are working out for you. Best of luck in the future!
Mason:
I appreciate that.
While many who defend 99Designs and sites like it are well within their rights to do so I feel they will never get the idea of how hazardous these sites can be to the designer until they get burned in that roll themselves.
Besides, there simply just is no substitute for actually getting out there and working hard to get the position you want, if you want to be a graphic designer then get out there and act like a graphic designer and sell yourself and your services.
Jack:
Man! Spec work is spec work and it’s BAD! BAD1 BAD!
How about looking at it like this: make me a burger and fries. I’ll eat it. If I like it I’ll pay you a small sum for it. If I don’t - oh, well!
There is a reason for contracts and project briefs - no matter the size of the job. Even for a beginning designer experience can be gotten in a reasonable manner. Try working in a print shop and really learning the business while starting your freelance career on the side.
Real Estate Web Site Design:
@Jack: It’s more like - Make me a burger and fries with everything but mayonnaise. You show me the burger and it has mayonnaise all over it so I say not I don’t want to eat that so I am not going to pay for it.
I understand your point but food is a bad example because food service is spec work in the sense that if it isn’t made the way I ordered it I’m sending it back and getting another or you can take it off my bill.
Idesigno:
Hi Real Estate Web Site Design,
You will have to pay for you burger if you signed a contract with your burger maker. But if you choose a good burger maker you wouldn’t get mayo to begin with.
Imtiaz:
Well, I will only say that you dont know the real taste [even buyer told everything in brief detail] but even you really dont know his taste, some time i saw the WINNING DESIGNER and I said myself “man I can make 1000000% better than it, so it was the taste of client??”"
This site is totally BULLSHIT. Now you can say “no” its awesome, you name it.
But I believe that after some time this site got below. The main reason is: although designer have the capibility to make awesome work but he always in suspect weather his work will get approval or not.
I give you one example: I got one contest, in GURANTEED CATEGORY.
I ask the client and requested him that instead of doing whole website mockup, let me give you step by step, i showed him and he said “good work, awesome one” and I got courage and I spent 2 ?ucking days and in the end he even did not give me 1 feedback while had given me 3 stars in my 20% work completed
The main problem is: SURETY which you will never get it from 99designs.com
Qazi
http://www.imtiaz1975.com
Crowdsourcing creates friction | SMLXL:
[...] is the following comments on the post that makes this an interesting conversation, such [...]
Rakel:
Generally, I agree. Spec work like 99designs is not very beneficial for the designer, and it rarely ever leads to continual work. I believe there are some people running contests on the site that ARE looking for a designer to build a relationship with, but that’s not the norm.
Over the past week or so I’ve been participating in some contests on 99designs. I have already won a contest, but it wasn’t for much… I would normally charge at least twice for the same work if someone came to me, and the only reason I participating in that contest is because the contest holder personally sent me a message asking me to participate because she liked designs I submitted to other contests.
However, doing spec work like that does eliminate some of the steps that I would normally do when making a logo. Which, is good if you just want something cheap and fast, but ultimately bad because you don’t really get the best ideas and work that way. I rarely sketch out any ideas when I’m participating in 99designs because I don’t want to put too much effort into something where the contest holder is likely to pick a design that is worse than mine anyway. Of course, that happens all of the time to designers anyway — gotta love when the client picks out a weaker concept.
BUT, on the flip side, I really do feel like my logo skills are getting better as I am working on contests. I used to practice by making up fictional companies, but there really is no substitute for something real, and getting real feedback (IF you can get some, which doesn’t usually happen, actually). However, when I freelanced full time I never had the time to spend on such things, since I pretty much always had a steady stream of paying work. Now that I work at a design group full time, I find myself working on things in my spare time… which is great because it’s pretty flexible, there really are no commitments on my end either. So if I get a real client, I can just stop participating in contests. No big deal. I could never make a living on 99designs though, nor would I ever expect to. I think as long as designers realize what 99designs is for and when it may be appropriate to participate, then they won’t get burned. You can also set up a strategy where you don’t spend more than a certain amount of time on any given thing, and if you just aren’t getting the ratings, then try a different contest.
Rakel:
Also, I am not really afraid of competition, I know I can hold my own, and I also know that (as I mentioned in my previous comment) a lot of times clients will pick out designs that are not very good, or not the strongest option available, for whatever reason. It could just be that mom and pop just don’t have any clue about branding so they don’t really know a good logo if it smacked ‘em in the face :P. A lot of times when I see the winning design I think, “What? They picked THAT one? But there are at least 2 or 3 other concepts I would have chosen over THAT!” Ah well.
I think there will always be a need for companies to interact with a designer in depth about their projects and having good relationships with designers. Once a company finds a designer they like, it saves a lot of time, and then they know they will have consistent and good results.
James Paden:
Great comments, Rakel - thanks for sharing!
Imtiaz:
Yes. You are right. The main problem is also that you dont know that exact taste of client. But I guess the reason [as a designer] attracts the designers are “good prize” I mean I am talking about 3rd world country, not BUSH LANDS
Guys is this possible if we all designer make one website the platform? Can we make some ideas and piss them off? possible?
Thanks
Qazi
Call Me Chaz:
One point that I haven’t seen mentioned yet is the sheer amount of plagiarism that exists on these sites. There are many examples out there of contest designers basically copying other existing logos for a contest. This might get them a win, but in the end it hurts the client as they might not know that the design belongs to another company until they get sued. Not only that, but the “designer” is paid for something that they didn’t originally create.
It’s funny to see who supports and who is against these contests in the comments. It seems most established designers agree that these contests are bad for our industry and lower client expectations, and business owners looking or cheap solutions are saying it helps their business.
THE|ODIN.co.uk | Web Blog:
[...] labour where designers work for nothing. positive space blog also made a similar point along with xemion and an armful of others who had string aruments against the site. Is it really right for designers [...]
freelancerG:
I’ve been using 99designs now for couple years on and off, got about a 10% win rate, and in times of no work it’s covered the bills. I was in a situation similar to Mason’s; a student, so pretty poor, and willing to do spec work. However, I found more times than not any business I’d offer to do work for wanted to know who else I’d done work for locally, which forms a very viscious circle (so they go straight to one of many crappy ‘design studios’ who build outdated, table-based shite. 99designs offered a way to showcase my work, make a bit of money, build a portfolio (even if i didn’t get paid it would go straight into my portfolio), and also improve greatly skill wise. If it’s made me a better designer, which I believe it has then I can’t possibly view it as negative.
It’s also got better, along with the guaranteed contests and CH history it’s easier to filter out the crap. And $600 on average for one little psd design, for me that’s quite a bit oh dosh.
Yes it does suck when the CH picks a design obviously inferior, but on the whole this doesn’t happen often. And hell my local ‘design studios’ who charge an obscene amount are nowhere near as talented as some of the designers on 99designs..I find that sad that the people with real talent are stifled by their surrounding so-called professional designers. You’ve all seen the type’s, designs of average quality (at best) shrouded from the naive client by suits, marketing jargon and a pretty shop front; surely it’s them doing the real damage?
seed:
Couple of points made in earlier posts that I’d like to address…
1) “I need the project done quick and efficiently, and I want lots of choices.”
- Why do you want lots of choices? Two or three I can understand, and that’s the norm, but I’d question the need for more than that. The point of designing is to figure out what is required, and then create it. If you want lots of choices, then it sounds like you don’t trust your designer to do his or her job. You might be right or wrong not to, but you might also want to consider that you’re imposing your personal tastes in a situation where you need to view the results a little more dispassionately. It’s the target market’s taste that’s important, not yours and not the designer’s.
2)”Maybe sites like 99designs.com are full of low quality designers and low quality designs based on spec work. If that’s the case then any top notch designer could go on there and own every contest. Since all the designs that come out are poor quality you could trump them with hardly any effort spent and make a nice, easy, chunk of bonus change.”
- Except it doesn’t work like that. Good design takes time, most of it on research. Which is why most of the designs on bid sites are crap or ripped off - the business model doesn’t encourage the ‘designers’ to spend time on producing something original and quality. So that’s why good designers charge more, not because they’re greedy or trying to rip you off.
3) Can’t find the exact quote, but someone mentioned bid sites being a threat to the design industry. They’re not. Big companies do not use bid sites. You won’t find the next Coca-Cola logo on 99designs. That’s because they have an understanding of what design is about and how paying for decent work is an investment rather than a cost - that’s right, however much they pay out for design, and it’s a LOT, they more than make it back. I totally understand that not everyone has Coke’s budget, but you can find independant freelancers online who will do good work for a reasonable price.
ron kelman:
what’s wrong with a llama manure clearing house logo?
ron kelman:
The only thing wrong with that site for me
is the price- and the copyright- but I guess
that’s a lot.
Marko Stankovic:
i always wonder how at 99designs certain designers constantly win more contests than others (in percent). and i wonder even more how some really creepy logos win over others obviously better designed logos. could anyone please explain that to me?
dev:
I totally side on you on this, truth is.. its the sad part of the lot, they want money, fast.. zombie work, no brainer needed. Based on what I’ve seen (my fiancee has been nagging me to join, and I actually signed up to test some logos i cooked up in my spare time).
Seed,
Indeed(your point in #2), the truth of the matter is. It’s spec work, you give the contest provider what they want, creative and art direction. This is where it fails, you end up with a client that doesnt know what they are communicating.
Marko, thats the problem, if you are a designer and pitching for your idea(creatively and strategically), its useless.
Great post Micah, 99designs could be made of win if it had fair prices, GOOD(and i MUST stress this) communication between client/artist. also: too much web2.0 trend goin on there
Dev
Micah Choquette:
Thanks for all the great feedback, everyone. It’s really humbling to see this post still garnering attention so long after I’ve written it. I hope it helps to educate and inspire all of those in the industry.
Kim Burrell:
99designs.com is a unique way of enhancing your skills and actually compete with with designers who want to be good at what they do. I think by taking the concept and over inflating the purpose and value of it is way too self-aggrandizing for most designers. If you want to be at the top of the food chain you have to overcome the psychology of the idea behind the site. We want to place a high value on what skills we have garnered but to what end, we will not change the world with design we will only enhance it.
Lawrence Meckan:
If you are at the top of the food chain, you are expected to be charged out at premium prices, not at the lowest, bargain basement prices. 99Design attracts bargain basement / firesale pricing.
How then is that overinflating value when the return on investment is stacked towards the client at the expense of the designer’s expertise and skills?
Charles Forster:
Lawrence,
you might be right on your first point, but it is overinflating value when the client has NO idea what he’s not getting. Part of our job in this field is to educate the client on what he needs, doesn’t need and what he should and shouldn’t do. If the client has no expectations, than a two-bit, steal established logos “designer” not educating the client is bad for both parties, but neither of them know that.
your arguement is flimsy.
Lawrence Meckan:
Education is a contributing factor. Client education is, in some ways, a reflection on the professionalism and expertise of the designer in question. Education, of course, also costs time and money to a business, and should be factored into the overall price billed out to the client.
How is it overinflating value when a professional design studio provides education and ongoing expertise at the standard market rate, and not at the bargain basement / firesale rate seen on 99designs? There’s at least two income streams: the artwork itself and the client education..
Katrina:
Spec work is bad, 99 designs is dreadful for it! My younger sister has just finished university, and is struggling like mad to build a portfolio, get experience and get a good job, Any budding designer knows this stage, the stage where your not experienced with clients and the industry enough to qualify for the job and the smaller business is hard to come by, she went on to 99 designs, thought it would build a portfolio at lest, had her work stolen by some teenager. you can simply right click someone elses work and swipe it, i myself am a designer so went on their to see what it was about,
the place is dribble, but i will be fair -
1 yes it does do relatively good designs if you do not know what a great design is then i’m sure you’d be happy.
2 Yes it’s cheaper!
3 yes it’s great for people in countries who have little else, and the money they get here is good.
4 And some may say it builds a designers portfolio.
5 There is place enough for everyone including this site.
now the flip side!
1 It is spec work done by people who have no idea, so they steal work, most of them are kids.
2 You get what you pay for, so don’t winge when the piece of ‘clip art’ that is the main factor in your logo turns up on someone else’s van! And the the cafe down the road!
3 If they are not qualified no matter where they are from they shouldn’t be classed as a ‘designer’ people work hard for that title.
4 You may be expanding your portfolio, however you are expanding a few other peoples with your work and ideas aswell … So do not be suprised if the words ‘ i m sorry i have seen that before’ slip out of people’s mouths!
5 There are budding designers who are great, edgy, unique unto themselves and qualified, that charge low prices as little as 99designs or there abouts, as they are looking to build their portfolio, they kind of rely on small business as the stepping stones of knowlege to get to the better paid jobs, which they very much deserve after spending years learning the profession.
And i think thats the ultimate word here profession, thats what it is. It is a job you should have been educated for, It does not solely rely on ‘creativity’ if that where the case my 4 year old could do it as she is very ‘creative’ she just made a dog in paint…. all blue’s and purples it is, very eye catching or should i say it has the ‘pop’ factor which 99designs loves so much. Do you think i should let her apply to 99designs? She may just win… she could play around in paint and steal other peoples work, have a portfolio the size of my house by the time she is 15 and maybe just maybe she could land a well paid job!
PinkyPantzer:
Dear all,
How would you describe a GOOD, A VERY GOOD DESIGNER ?
One that is doing beautiful graphics ? Works that simply stand out? Works which deserve a place in a gallery or museum ? A simply state of art?
Or one who will please his client? One who will adjust infinitely his first logo sketch to fit his client’s needs and demands?
I bet you all, THE BEST DESIGNERS, will eventually end up tweaking your logo in a way you didn’t think in the beginning. And you will get big money for this.
I apologies, but I think you all who claims to be GREAT DESIGNERS are big hypocrites. You had the opportunity to work in an ad agency and, sooner or later you end up as freelancers.
So, there is nothing more or less between you, A BIG GREAT DESIGNER and a 15 years old kid who got some design talent and is drawing for 99designs.com
All this buzz is just about your big EGO who think is not going to get any more job because you all know that all the clients wants to pay less for jobs. And all of you know that you practice very big and comfortable fees.
I am a designer 40 years old man, who graduate a design university, who become a teacher in this university and I also do freelance jobs.
So, I’ve got client to payed me 1.000 euros just for one logo, and I’ve got clients who payed me 200$ for a logo.
I’ve seen self claimed BIG GREAT DESIGNERS with high fees which did not know basics about color compositions and did bad and excellent logos. And i’ve seen 17 years old boys with no education in graphics and who did excellent jobs and also bad jobs.
There is no difference between a 100years old GIB GREAT DESIGNER and a 10years kid when it comes to INSPIRATION.
So, my dear BIG BREAT DESIGNERS. In this world there is room for everyone. For you, for me and for this kids. Watch your own way and seek inspiration. For 1000$ or for 50 Euro. It’s up to you when picking your clients or jobs.
And remeber. In this whole planet are a very very few Companies or Clients who afford to pay 1000$ for a Logo. But a VEEEERY large amount of small companies who afford only 100$.
Kindly,
Mr. M.T.
Ed:
Kevin, you should really consider looking at this from other viewpoints. Keep in mind that if someone were to hire you for a design that you may provide them with an awesome product but at the same time, your results are limited by your creativity. I am not saying you are not creative, only that the creativity of many designers is always better than one.
The best part about this site is that you have options and you can choose your deisgn carefully. In addition, it is up to the designer to spend their time creating designs. They do not have to if they do not want to.
Maybe you should reconsider a few things that you might need to do:
1) Provide your customers with more accurate estimates
2) Reduce your rate (designers are everywhere and paying $50-$75 per hour is out of the question)
3) If you are looking for work and you are so good, start entering these contest. (maybe your hostility is from LOSING these contest to better or worse designs)
4) Keep in mind, what you want and think is the best does not mean your customer will.
You have already proven in your write up that you are a close minded person who cannot see the big picture. This is probably true with your designs and your creativity is limited. End result, your customer base is not what it use to be and this bothers you and you cannot figure it out. Oh well, take a step back and do some continuing education and you might learn something to help you continue advancing in your career.
Ed:
I just looked at Kevin’s website and I have to reiterate that this guy may do some nice work but at the same time, he is lacking in the “WOW” department.
I can totally understand his hostility and why he would not do well on 99designs.com. There are far more creative people on there entering contest with only HOPES of earning some cash. Based on what I see from Kevin’s portfolio, he gets paid for much lower quality.
Loser!
Lawrence Meckan:
I’ve yet to see a “pro” 99designs / design contests user willing to pony up their portfolio. I’ve seen a lot of “pro” 99 people attacking other designers, yet from the comments here and elsewhere, it seems 99 is inhabited by students (and teachers, as attested to by “PinkPantzer”), not professionals, since most designs end up being iterations of another designer’s work on 99. Iterative work on an existing artwork is a grey area in terms of legality, both for the designers and for the end client
At the end of the day, the quality of the work delivered, whether or not it can pass an IP check, and the client education is what matters. 99designs caters to the first point only. There is no guarantee that the intellectual property produced in competition could ever achieve a trademark status, let alone a copyright.
The creation and signover of intellectual property, the searching of trademarks and logos for potential infringement and educating the clientele as to the usage rights associated with the logo are additional overheads. Overheads increase costs.
Instead of astroturfing that 99designs is cool and anyone who critiques is is a loser, perhaps it would be better if the pro99 crowd demonstrated the strength of their portfolio and how it reflected in their overheads?
Design is a business after all. Let’s see how well the business model stacks up.
Dave:
I just had a couple contests end on 99Designs last week and I’m pleased with the results.
The reason I went with 99Designs was the variety of the submissions. Sure, 75% of them were trash and were thrown together in less than 10 minutes. That is going to happen when anyone can submit a design. But the other 25% were great and I made sure that I gave feedback on a daily basis.
After the contest ended, I realized the downside of 99Design. I had a couple of designers from each contest not win yet they probably went through 10 revisions that I requested. I felt bad enough that I sent each them 33% of the final prize.
I can see how unscrupulous contest holders can steal designs and how unscrupulous designers steal other designs. I made it a point not to reward someone who submitted a derivative design of another and I made it a point not to refer to another designer submission.
I was happy with the results and both winners each had entered less than 12 contests and hadn’t won a contest.
sliq:
so now 99designs has ‘guaranteed’ contests, where contest holders prepay the prize amount.
is this a good move on their part?
Kevin:
A “guaranteed” contest means nothing to designers. 99designs goal and system is to sign up as many Contest Holders(CH) as possible.
99designs makes money and charges an up-front fee for each contest.
So if designers steal from each other, or contest holders pit one against another(during comments) when consolidating designs is not important to 99designs. Even though they say they “care.”
There is always a way around their system. For example. In a recent “guaranteed” contest, either the CH or a friend of theirs registered newly as a designer at the very last hour - submitted a design and was declared the winner. No money lost from the CH’s pocket, on a “guaranteed” contest.
With sleuthing… this “winning” design was posted on another forum 6 months earlier asking theirs friend for feedback. Traced online back to the contest holder. (Thank goodness for Google search).
99designs response so far from designers’ email complaints. Silence. Zero.
I appreciate honest Contest Holders and winners. But 99designs business model and site system is way out of whack towards contest holders.
Kevin J:
Sorry readers. Just wanted to clarify. Comments by Kevin, dated Feb 25th 2009, at 5:48pm are mine, Kevin J.
I’ve added the J. to my name now. Didn’t want to cause any confusion to the original Kevin who wrote the article.
Jerry:
A smart designer will realize that 99designs (and similar) are a GREAT resource for bulk design. We’ve been in the business for a long time, and many low-end clients don’t care what they get - as long a it is cheap. 99designs (and others) provide us with plenty of FREE reference material to peddle away “great looking” designs for next to nothing. I won’t go into the details of how we do it - but it works for us.
We don’t, however, post fake contests (others do, for sure).
So that’s how 99designs can work for you, WITHOUT engaging in it
…
We are like BMW but we own several secret Yugo factories on the side;)
Spec work and crowdsourcing for design is unethical - designers beware! | DL Web Design:
[...] Recommended Reading: 99designs.com: a warning to freelancers [...]
Christa Watson:
I can understand both sides of the story here. I actually bought a logo from a design contest on 99designs. I absolutely love it! I paid minimum for it, but at the time, it was that or nothing and a lot of people seemed happy to want to participate.
All in all I still paid over $100 for a logo. I felt bad because I liked a lot of the designs, but in the end, one transformed into something I never knew I wanted. That’s why it is hard to participate in feedback, because I really liked some designs, but in the end when the designer wasn’t chosen they felt snubbed. This was a downfall for me because I also design and I know how hard it is to work on a project and not have it chosen.
All in all, there are going to be ups and downs in the system. I think that it’s a shame that some companies will not claim a winner after the contest and then steal the design. There should be more repercussions for this theft. But there are still both parties that benefit greatly from sites like these, businesses and otherwise. A lot of up and comers also have a way to build up their portfolio with these contests.
Personally, my experience was great, but on the other side I probably would not participate due to the low likelihood of actually being paid for my time…
Christine T:
I had to comment on this one. I happen to like the concept of 99designs. I have not submitted a contest but would a. guarantee it and b. not post a super low winning. I do, however, work with many small businesses who need a logo and don’t have $700 to purchase one. I like that they can choose from more than one concept as I too have received “crap” work from professional designers. I like the opportunity for the designers who are buiding their portoflio or for FREELANCERS who AREN’T WORKING. I know a few designers who want to make it on their own but are afraid to take the leap..perhaps logos aren’t what they specialize in but they now have the opportunity to work on that skill. This is a completely opt in website so for those who want to charge premium prices..please do! For those just getting started, need to improve, or want a chance to earn some extra money…go for it! I do not like dishonesty in any format and hope that 99designs will work harder on curbing issues. There is a place in this business for both traditional work and sites like this!
Roberto Blake:
This is just my opinion. Freelancing is not something to start unless you meet some qualifying criteria to ensure you “ability to be successful”. Being a good designer is not enough, nor is being a good salesman, or a social butterfly. These are the tips I suggest for becoming a Freelancer FULL TIME, and I believe that these guidelines are a better investment of time than 99designs.com but, judge for yourselves.
Qualifying criteria.
Be in a position to do this for real- If you are going to loose your home if you don’t get a client for 2 months, or if you think you’re going to find yourself in a position where you won’t have a client for more than 2 months, you should reconsider Freelancing exclusively and get something consistent.
Creditability- How does someone qualify your work as a Graphics/Web Designer or developer. No, your portfolio is not your creditability here. Certifications in HTML, SEO, or even Adobe Certifications in Dreamweaver or Photoshop are your meal ticket here. If you have previous industry experience then your clients, and employers testimonials to your work and professionalism will count for much.
Marketability- You’ve got skills, but can you sell it? You need a diverse portfolio so different clients from different backgrounds can have an idea of what you can do for them. Just because your work and your style is amazing, does not mean you will be a good fit for everyone. A balanced and well rounded portfolio of work that appeals to a broad demographic is important.
Be in a position to be competitive- Do you meet industry standards? Are you aware of industry standards? Are you using the best tools and techniques int he industry? Some bottom lines- you should at least be using Photoshop or Photoshop Elements. I don’t have anything against Paintshop Pro, and I will advocate Corel Painter X actually, but The GIMP? School is out, use what the pros do. Get a Wacom tablet, even if its a Bamboo Fun. This will cut your design time down by 33-50% and extend your ability to use Photoshop and Illustrator. Get a digital camera. Find a computer built in the last 2 years.
Accountability - set up contracts for everything, and get prepaid legal, use model releases for every photo shoot, send invoices, communicate everything you possibly can via email to keep a record, keep an accounting of everything you do, everything you buy, everything you sell. Always retain the right to reproduce and republish your work for promotional purposes. This is a deal breaker.
Education- no this does not mean go to college, although its certainly helpful in some respects, but not necessary. DO YOUR HOMEWORK, whether you went to college or not, you can’t afford not do your homework. Pick up the Graphic Designers Handbook and learn about the trade from a non-academic perspective, and talk to other people int he industry.
Professionalism - always be professional at all time in all places no matter what. You are your brand, protect the integrity of your brand. You’re not a person anymore you are a walking logo.
Salesmanship- This one is just my personal opinion, but I feel you should never do what someone else can do for you better and faster. The time you take to run down leads, is time that you could be learning new photoshop techniques, creating stock photograpahy,or enhancing your portfolios.
Recruit friends and family to your cause, give them business cards or any of your other promotion material with your phone number, email, and website and promise them a commission any leads that result in sales where you receive a deposit. They have an incentive to actual help you by helping themselves, and you don’t waste time.
Visibility- this is key, make yourself visible and you will make yourself known. Post where ever you can, and build a positive online reputation. Compete in contest, participate in forums, keep a blog, keep multiple portfolios (but keep them all up to date), use Social Media Marketing to your advantage, it worked out well for the 44th president of the United States, right?
Pete:
I don’t like the idea behind 99designs as i think its flawed, it is a case of design by committee. More often than not this will mean that the contest holder will know less than a designer about what they need from their design, and then choose a winning design based on their tastes rather than their users taste. Anyone else see my point ?
Pete:
should be… and then choose a winning design based on their tastes rather than their users needs.
joe:
Don’t forget that you can have the best design in a contest and still not win!
Many of the contests are not “guaranteed”, meaning you can spend all week doing work for a client and then have them wander off and not pay you or any else a dime.
Chris:
Although this is a “designer oriented” discussion, I have to say it’s amazing how little attention is paid to the customer. That’s me. The person paying for the design work. The person signing the check. The perspective is notably one-sided.
I’ve started several several tiny software companies and worked with probably three dozen designers of varying skill over the years. There’s little correlation between price and quality of work. Same is true for any highly skilled profession. I’ve paid attorneys $600 / hour and gotten incomprehensible gibberish. It’s an unfortunate fact that compensation and skill aren’t tightly connected. A hungry person with an empty calendar might offer an outstanding deal.
Regrettably, graphic designers tend to fall relatively low on the professionalism scale. Don’t get all hot and bothered about that before considering others designers you’ve (a) heard of and (b) worked with directly. It’s not a big stretch.
My company places a high emphasis on communication, timeliness and quality of work. Many designers are by definition creative people. Creative people don’t always see much value in those basic boring business skills. And that’s exactly the problem in hiring someone. The same designer I loved two months ago disappears without a word for four weeks. That’s particularly true of freelancers. Earlier this year, someone accepted a project and promised turnaround by the end of the week. Highly rated, good work history, well written proposal. Proposal signed and 1st payment was escrowed. Yes, escrowed. One of my learning lessons over the years for working with new vendors. Four weeks later – no work. I finally cancelled the project and spent another two weeks wrangling a refund.
I’ve used personal referrals, small design shops, Elance and Guru. No difference except in pricing. And I can’t afford to budget $15K to develop a website and hope it works out. The issue is our time, not simply writing a check. Picking one freelancer/designer/firm and seeing 2-3 designs is how y’all think. And if it doesn’t work for whatever reason? I’ve lost another 4-6 weeks (often longer) and delayed the product launch yet again. You’ve probably been paid 1/3 up-front.
Seeing a little advance work is a FABULOUS way of evaluating someone. In all these years, it’s about the only proven way of vetting someone. Every time we hire in any field (permanent or freelance), the candidate has to complete a mini-project. It might be simply “Write a business email to XYZ asking for ABC”. You’d be amazed at how quickly that weeds out the garbage in every field. And don’t say “Well, you can always look at my portfolio, right?”
No, actually I can’t. Your portfolio doesn’t tell me how long the project took, what it cost, how many revisions, how awkward was the communication process, how clearly did you follow instructions? It leaves *many* questions unanswered. I’ve had one design team literally repeat the same mistakes and revert back to earlier iterations that were discarded. Unbelievably frustrating. Your goals are getting compensated fairly, developing long-term clients and (presumably) showcasing your design talents. Why would you think mine are any different?!?
Add my name to those horrible short-sighted business owners trying to find a better method of hiring a designer. My first 99 Designs project was just posted. It’s one web page. It’s guaranteed to pay $350. Personally, I think that’s a fair deal and really hope to end up with someone who shares our mutual goals.
Let me finish with a simple question. Presumably, there are *many* qualified designers participating in this discussion. But sheer odds indicates those are in the minority.
My question: Exactly how would I go about telling the difference?
Cheers,
Chris
p.s. And I’m still looking for a designer. Feel free to email — chris AT gomobileiq DOT COM —
Chris:
Oops, didn’t realize our website wouldn’t get posted earlier. It’s http://www.gomobileiq.com. Our latest project now stuck in “lack-o-designer limbo” is temporarily living @ http://www.goskunkworks.com. It’s the upcoming website update, but lacks some design mojo on the non-blog pages.
Cheers,
Chris
ForwardLeap:
I think 99designs is great!
I hosted five contests and I have to say that the designers were excellent!. As for fair to the designers…
On my first contest, the guy that didn’t win got pist off. He said he earned $50 an hour and had spent a lot of time for nothing! sure… If you’ve got a job why bother… Well, some designers don’t think like that. The guy who won, not only did I buy his design, I also hired him personally do do my company logo and may hire him to do my webiste.
On my second contest, not only did I buy the first design, I also contacted the #2 and bought her design. I was also contacted by a few other designers who showed me their portfolios and I was impressed. I may contact them directly in the future.
Some designers out there just want a chance to show what they can do.
Bottom line, I don’t think nobody is out there to get your cozy designer job. There will always be a market for personalized services. But, I have to say, there is a value in having 20 designers submit totally deferent concepts. Then, after that, a personalized service sounds like a good idea.
Rick:
I love 99designs.com its a wonderful service if your a buyer, the price is reasonable and the quality is Ok.
I even think that its a great way for new designers or other freelancers to get practice and get their work out the door, and even build a portfolio.
Love the service and the designers who use 99designs.com, keep up the good work.
Don:
@Chris: You’ve nailed precisely my experiences with graphic designers. When I first started hiring designers and artists for a small publishing company, I hired based on portfolios and promises.
Without exception, I got horrible results. More than one designer took off with my deposit. One gave the excuse that, after he had gotten started on my project (and been paid a deposit), a more prestigious client wanted him to do some work, so he had to put me off for a few months. This guy is a pro - he’s illustrated children’s books, has an agent, an outstanding portfolio, the whole nine yards.
Other designers had fabulous portfolios and client testimonials. Somehow, when it came time to work on my projects, their talent evaporated. I got terrible work - I could have done better myself.
For the longest time, I thought that I was doing something wrong, or perhaps that I just wasn’t communicating. As it turns out, that wasn’t the case. I’ve gotten awesome work done on the same basis that 99designs uses (though not at 99designs itself).
So, I have three questions questions for the pro designers here:
1. Why should I gamble my business’s money on a roll of the dice involving a “professional” designer with a slick portfolio, possibly wasting a great deal of my time and money?
2. How can I know if a designer will follow through and not take off with my deposit or waste my time?
3. What kind of recourse do professional designers generally offer to customers who don’t like what they get?
In my experience, the answer to the last question is, “none,” so I’m done taking chances.
Lawrence Meckan:
Don,
You ask three questions. The answers aren’t that complex.
1. A professional, in comparison to a backyard, pirated, job (which Crowdspring has become known for, along with 99), does have more knowledge about the entire design process, and will deliver more research and education to the client along the road. Research and education to you of what that research entails and delivers does cost time and money. The 99 and Crowdspring mob/design by committee process, neither provides the client with education, or with effective R&D.
2. This question is related to business management. Obviously it would seem that a reputable business, in comparison to a amateur/hobbyist, will provide business protection to the customer. Warranties, refunds and the rest of the contractual obligations that are present on starting a commissioned work. If you engage a business that does not provide these protections to you, how is the fault of the design industry?
3. Effective design involves research and development. Most studios, including my own, offering 3 divergent designs which then get iterated into 1 final design, to help speed the research process. If you engage a designer who offers 1 design alone, and you do not provide an effective framework by which they can research and deliver on the brief, it is obvious that they will fail, and you will not like the result. The problem is choice and education. You have to find designers who offer up enough choices to start the creative process. 99/Crowdspring imitates this, but fails on the research aspect.
I do believe most of your issues with the design industry would be solved by designers providing deliverables regarding their research, in addition to the final design/artwork.
Like any industry, there are sharks and wannabes who tout themselves as “professionals” when they’re not. It is always the customers responsibility to enact caveat emptor in dealing with any purchase.
Don:
@Lawrence: Thanks for your answers, but I still don’t “get it”.
You answered my question about the added value of hiring a pro instead of going through 99designs or a similar site by saying (in part), that a pro “will deliver more research and education to the client along the road.” Frankly, I don’t care where a designer comes up with a design and I’m not paying for an education. I’m paying for a solid piece of design work, nothing more. For instance, I don’t need to know what inspired an artist to use their product on my letterhead.
In your answer to question 2, “How do I know a designer won’t take off with a deposit”, you said, “If you engage a business that does not provide these protections to you, how is the fault of the design industry?”
Well, I had contracts with each and every one of the designers I mentioned in my post. I certainly could have sued the designers for breech of contract, but it just isn’t worth the time and money it would take to hire a lawyer and sue someone several states away. The real answer is, there is no guarantee, and every time I hire a designer and pay anything up front, it’s a crap shoot.
As to your answer to my question about what recourse a design customer has, you didn’t answer it. What I meant was, if a designer screws me, what can I do short of suing him? Most designers I have hired have demanded some kind of cash advance, but I get no such security.
However, you did say that you offer “3 divergent designs”, I suppose as a safeguard against paying for a bad design. What if I don’t like any of them? I’ve run into that situation, too, and the answer has always been, pick one or pay the designer to come up with something. Obviously, one can’t expect a designer to read minds, but I’ve always handed over very detailed design specs.
You summed up by saying, “It is always the customers responsibility to enact caveat emptor in dealing with any purchase.” Absolutely, and that’s why I will continue to use services like 99designs rather than paying “professionals” deposits up front.
It’s just too risky, and a little foolish, to pay up front for something you may never get when you can pay a lower rate to take your pick of a wide array of products whose quality equals that of far more expensive designers.
Don’t get me wrong - I understand that, from a designer’s perspective, spec work is even worse. I suppose it would be like me paying a deposit to a designer, then hoping that designer decides to do work for me. I don’t know where the solution lies, but as long as designers are willing to participate, I will use services like 99designs. It’s the safest solution for me - and my business.
Lawrence Meckan:
@Don,
I do believe you’ve misunderstood. Research is going through trademarks, similar businesses/branding, successful campaigns in related industries, in order to ensure the final design is reflective of your business. Education is informing you of the ongoing design process, and all the gotchas involved.
You also state:
“I don’t care where a designer comes up with a design”
which, of course, engenders the 99/Crowdspring crew to pirate designs outside of your field of vision in order to secure your money. After all you’re “paying for a solid piece of design work, nothing more.”
You’re not paying for IP protection, not for trademark research, not even a decent copyright and trademark protection over the final work at 99/Crowdspring. You’re just getting an artwork, at the very cheap end of town. Inspiration shouldn’t even factor into it.
Regarding the 3 divergent designs, the reason they’re meant to be divergent is so that the first round of feedback does iterate out and focus on the key aspects. Sure, you may not like any of them, but a professional should ask and be able to gauge what is meant to be deliverable. Merely saying you don’t like them, and leaving the sum total of your feedback at that, only short changes the design process. A professional should be able to find the key elements inside negative feedback and respond to it. Unfortunately, many designers have egos that don’t respond well to criticism, generally destroying the entire project for the client.
Now you recognise that doing business is a crap shoot. Every business could go round suing on breach of contract. This problem isn’t confined to the design industry, every industry has bad apples in the bunch.
I know you’re looking for security, but any business risk, even instigating a new contract with a vendor, is till a risk. As a business you have to account for that risk. It’s part of everyday business management. Why then blame designers for being at fault, when any other industry is also capable of defaulting on a contract?
The thing with caveat emptor is that you, as a business, are being exposed to different business risks by engaging on 99/Crowdspring. Like others have commented, all 99 is out to do is gain some money off people in order to “host” a competition. Not to protect you, not to protect copyright, just to get some money. That’s why crowdsourcing and design competitions are littered with pirated works. This is where your whole “take your pick of a wide array of products whose quality equals that of far more expensive designers” falls into a crying heap. Sure, there’s a wide array of designs, but it is the imitation of research, not a qualitative measurement of research. A million monkeys typing on a keyboard is just a million monkeys typing on a keyboard, not a sonnet of Shakespeare.
Now you’re paying up front, but you’re paying up front for the illusion of security. Why ? Because at the cheap end of town, where do you think these “designers” are sourcing from ? They don’t have the resources to engage ongoing IP and campaign investigations, so they pirate. They have to. They want your money, even at the cheap end of town.
The middle ground is to find a designer who can be trusted, who you like working with, who can cope with criticism, and who can deliver the goods for you. That’s why most design studios cost so much, in comparison to 99. Generally there is a project manager who manages the designer as much as they manage the relationship with you. That’s apart from the R&D deliverables, and the final product.
The thing is.. with this industry, there’s two sides. Most companies employ local or national designers at standard industry rates (national protections do matter for business processes), or go overseas/outsource for lower costs when they’ve ended up being “burnt” in a business relationship.
I consider 99 and Crowdspring a haven for those burnt. How do I know this ? Look at all the comments above talking about how clients got stuff cheaper and with less “hassle” than dealing with design studios. This shows there is a market where clients need to re-establish communication with reputable agencies to restore their faith in the design process.
Fuper:
I have used 99designs twice now. Both times I was completely satisfied. I was told about the backlash to 99designs after I ran my second contest. I was curious what the arguments would, assuming it would be little more than “it’s not fair we have to [not] compete with people that can charge a low price”.
I got that argument, although nobody really out and out said it from the design point of view. Regardless the more interesting point I saw raised was that “you get what you pay for” or people are buying low quality junk and are not getting all the other value that one would normally get working with a proper design firm.
So what does the real deal buy me? Why would spending $8-20k be so much better for my company? What is the return on my investment? If I cannot tell the difference between an average/crapy logo and a $10,000 dollar logo what difference does it make? I’m not Pepsi or Nike, I’m a small business. I spent 400 or 500 bucks for my logo. I’m not sure if my logo would of been 20 times better had I gone a more established route.
James:
20 times better! That one got me - I think you hit the nail on the head. If it’s twice as much cost it had better be twice as good! I doubt that side by side I could tell the “professional” from the “99 design dirtbag”
And don’t the “professional” design guys have a staff of interns and hourly designers they make a profit from? Wouldn’t it be some of these same support staff that can make a couple hundred bucks a week by designing when they’re bored?
CM Lenzi:
In the instance of 99Designs being on GMA the other day, I sat in my office in a very small town surrounded by my 40 years of extremely high end professional design work neatly cataloged, which includes everything from simple logos and products to multi million dollar homes… there I was, just sitting there, with absolutely nothing to do with my talent. As in the logo trade, the architectural design
industry is quite slack these days. Clients are going cheap these days attempting their own home building via TV shows and cheap computer programs.
As well, all artistically based industries have:
A) Professionals, with all the expertise including both manual and computer skills, talent, equipment, competing with
B) Beginners with a little computer skill that makes everything look professional, with no idea of actually what it takes to be in business.
I tried to fire off one of those contest pieces. I carefully looked at the “cut and paste” competition, coming to the conclusion I could whip out a concept in my sleep better by hand, pretty it up on the computer and justify slapping “ROUGH SKETCH” across the front with my signature on it. Quite frankly, I came to the same conclusion as this original article. I tossed my design in the trash. It’s not that I am too proud to realize I can no longer expect $125 per hour clients nationally, nor even $50, nor even $25 on a local level. But for me to hand out designs that do actually take more than 1/2 day to do correctly and with thought, in the grand hopes “winning” really just makes for a doomed self esteem.
To seal my fate as a 99design contest winner is to give up my celebrity, my overhead, my talent, and my desire to come through this economy with some income that moves me forward and not back.
I could win a contest or few, and lose my professionalism in the process. It wouldn’t happen right away, but eventually I’d lose it.
However, in a nutshell Americans are busted; lowering their standards on everything from banking, homes,logos,etc. and all of us professionals can grumble all we want about this 99designs business, but it ain’t gonna change the fact that when you walk out of your office door, you’ll be looking for bargain basement stuff too, in clothes and equipment made from the lowest bidder.
Hmmm, maybe I will close my office sit back at the ranch in my recliner and knock out some of these contests after all. I can get down and dirty with the rest of dem dar’ youngins’, I’ll just use a different name. Hmm, I need a really cool new name and logo. Anyone want to enter my contest?
Lawrence Meckan:
I signed up to 99 and CS simply to see how well they actually police copyright and licence infringement, and pretty much they don’t. Ross and the rest may say they do, but they don’t. Perhaps the fact they’ve got a “report copyright” button for artwork gives them a sense of security that they’re acting like they’re protecting design collateral. But it’s just an act, a facade, a pretence, smoke and mirrors.
They just want their cut and the “designers” can do whatever to whatever artwork they can get their hands on. I’ve seen derivatives of major corporate logos, off other reputable designer’s portfolios. Around 90% of the logo and design work I’ve seen is based on the vector art and TemplateMonster torrent feeds when it’s not ripping off someone else. Of course, those templates and vector art specifically have usage rights than mean they aren’t meant to be redistributed or munted into logos. So the “designers” on these crowdsourcing sites are cannabilising stock art from a similar price point (namely, the microstock businesses - IStock, Stock Exchange Pro, Shutterstock), all at the expense of the client. These “designers” are also exposing the client to either a C&D or a hefty legals/licencing fee outside of what they pitched for the contest, due to the dubious nature of the design process.
This shows why crowdsourcing artwork is a failure. There is no quality control, no legal stipulation that the artwork produced can actually pass into a trademark as part of a business’ protection of its brand, when in reality, most of the artwork being used is in violation of some licencing agreement somewhere anyway, even before someone pays money to the “designer” for the contest.
Businesses need that protection. I know of a few cases where competitors to a business have actually leveraged the “loose” copyright and licencing available on a crowdsourced logo in order to create a negative PR campaign and drive people to their competitors.
CM Lenzi:
As with face to face clientelle, the system of copyright protection is a matter of exactly how much money one has stashed to make the case and get paid. The concepts posted in these contests are completely available to be ripped off and used for anything.
There is nothing more devastating professionally to see your own work ripped off, something I am all too familiar with. In every small claims court I’ve won, but the big ones, sadly the amount of the recovery even if it’s in the thousands would only go to lawyers, that’s if the client actually had the cash. Now, if we’re talking global-How many asians are looking at these amatuer logos for the next “Hello Kitty”?
It is with some small satisfaction I can rest assured humbly in the knowledge that when the entire internet and computer operations are finally hacked in to; when we are all knocked back in to the stone age, I can pick up my pencils, markers, and drafting equipment, and carry on… of course not without an iron clad contract.
JOJO:
I have love and hate relations with 99designs, the prize if i’m winning the contest really great (for my country averages). i’m 8 years experienced of graphic design and already have a job title as senior graphic designer, but you wouldn’t believe if my salary is about US$ 270 a month, it’s really the average prize of 99designs contests. I’ve winning 7 times at 99designs logo contest, and it’s helps really my financial. so i thin nothing to lose for being part of 99designs community, but yes it really breaking my heart if my designs get eleminated after i spare a lot of time working on the contest…
JOJO:
I have love and hate relations with 99designs, the prize if i’m winning the contest isreally great (for my country averages). i’m 8 years experienced of graphic design and already have a job title as senior graphic designer, but you wouldn’t believe if my salary is about US$ 270 a month, it’s really the average prize of 99designs contests. I’ve winning 7 times at 99designs logo contest, and it’s really helps my financial. so i think nothing to lose for being part of 99designs community, but yes it really breaking my heart if my designs get eleminated after i spare a lot of time working on the contest…
Darrin Keller:
I think 99designs is great! I’ve hired many a designer for various projects. Many designers try to pass themselves off as capable of doing everything. But everybody knows that designers have a “style” and sometimes it is much, much easier to run a contest and see fresh new ideas. Granted, it’s not on the level of some really great designers I know but it’s a good source for small businesses.
Drbling:
I’ve taken looks at some of these sites and it seems all too risky.
Its hard enough to win the contests and if you try your best and put hours into a logo, chances are you still won’t win unless you are a true professional (I’m not).
Here’s my dilemma: I am over halfway through high school now, and I’m looking into Graphic Design as a field. I just want to try some of this stuff out and I’m not looking for large sums of money, but neither do I want to have a slim chance at a contest.
So I’m wondering if anyone here can give me ideas on how to start up and work 1 on 1 with clients rather then this thing people call spec work.
Kim:
I have used http://www.logomyway.com they guarantee the designer the contest money. All contests are prepaid.
What Do You Think?